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sedated
04-12-2014, 08:49 PM
My car has been fine for a long time. When I drove it, temperature stayed in the lower quarter of the gauge. Lately it started going high up to the orange area for a bit, then going back down to the lower quarter. Just now on my ride home (a cool night), it went to 260 and stayed there second half of my short drive home from my parent's house. Any suggestions? Is my gauge wrong? Best of my knowledge the fans are working. It was a short drive, I wasn't hotrodding, and the engine itself when I stopped at home didn't seem unusually hot.

Boo
04-12-2014, 08:55 PM
Maybe the rad is clogging up? Maybe a top pass side small hose rad air bleed is worth a shot? I hot rod all the time in Boo, and today her temp went up to just above the first tick and she has a brand new Houston rad.. I think it's just that it was hotter outside today.
Just my two pennies...

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-12-2014, 08:59 PM
A radiator will not just suddenly clog up unless you have introduced something in the coolant. My first guess is the coolant level...you are describing textbook low coolant level situation. It also could be the thermostat is sticking..but that usually happens as it first opens and the temp will climb up then fall as the thermostat opens fully. Once it's open its open.
Check the most common things first...coolant level and or thermostat.

PS Don't discount the possibility of air in the system.

sedated
04-12-2014, 09:02 PM
I'll check the thermostat, it's been good for a long time and this is unusual for it. Thanks for the advice.

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-12-2014, 09:07 PM
Just reread your post...260? Woahhh. How long did it stay there?

sedated
04-12-2014, 09:25 PM
It stayed there for the last 4-5 minutes of my trip home. Perhaps I'm not judging it correctly, but when I got home I went back and felt over the engine... it didn't seem hotter than usual. I'm not sure.

NightFlyer
04-12-2014, 09:29 PM
260F is not good - in the future, it would be best to shut the car off and let it cool down before you resume driving it.

Lots of reasons that this could be happening, but without some trouble shooting, it's difficult to assist in pointing you in the right direction.

Step 1: Check the level of coolant in the header tank. Also, never be worried about overfilling the system - it will puke out what ever it doesn't want.

Step 2: Positively confirm that the the fans are in fact engaging, and determine at what temp they're engaging at.

We'll proceed from there :)

On a side note - does any of your driving including steep grades? If it does, then you could be introducing air into the system. Dave M experienced air bubbles infiltration his system when his car was drive up/down the auto-train ramp on his way to a past DCS. Thus, if your travel regularly includes steep grades, then you'll have to be more diligent in properly maintaining the cooling system.

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-12-2014, 09:30 PM
It stayed there for the last 4-5 minutes of my trip home. Perhaps I'm not judging it correctly, but when I got home I went back and felt over the engine... it didn't seem hotter than usual. I'm not sure.

Well that's a long time to stay that hot...I hope you didn't do any damage but again that's a questionable time to run in the red....it doesnt take long to damage a head gasket or warp something. FWIW a overheated engine will look just the same as a cool engine(unless ypu are boiling out ypur coolant which leads me to the low coolant level again...why didnt it boil out and cause a steam show?) Also the internal coolant temp is pretty hard to discern by feeling the radiated heat, especially when trying to "feel" the difference between 200 degrees and 260 degrees.

Boo
04-12-2014, 09:34 PM
Remember two things
1) I'm the Delorean Boo-Boo. Says so in my avatar

2) 2 cents are actually worth negative in other countries at our current exchange rate.

Just trying!

:)

stevedmc
04-12-2014, 09:45 PM
The first thing I would check is your coolant level as well. You could also have a bad radiator cap. Check the seal on your radiator cap. If it is worn replace it.

sedated
04-12-2014, 09:46 PM
So you think the car really was running that hot? That quickly too? It's a short drive from my parent's to mine... only about 6-7 minutes. There are no hills, I've seen no issues before on this, and there was no steam or anything else that made me question if something was wrong. It may not have been 4-5 minutes... when you're watching a gauge in your car peg like that, it feels like forever. As I mentioned, the whole trip to my parents house is very short, and 90% of the trip is at low speed.

stevedmc
04-12-2014, 09:46 PM
Here is the cross reference info for a radiator/coolant cap.

Coolant/Radiator Cap
AutoZone Part #7616
$5.99
Cross reference vehicle 1981 Cadillac Deville 4.1L 4BL OHV 6cyl
CST Part # 7616 may not be searchable anywhere but AutoZone. You can get a coolant cap at other places with the cross reference vehicle information.

stevedmc
04-12-2014, 09:47 PM
So you think the car really was running that hot?

If you have a coolant leak the definite answer is, yes.

stevedmc
04-12-2014, 09:52 PM
I'm hoping things are fine, but just so the info is out there, this video shows how I test for blown head gaskets. I do this procedure from the coolant tank and I don't bother removing any coolant prior to running the test. I use a cheaper unit than what is shown in the video. Mine only has one chamber and I think I paid about $30 for it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA7KVQq9vKA

sedated
04-12-2014, 11:04 PM
I don't see any fluid in my driveway, I don't think anything is leaking. I can't open the engine cover alone since the bumper rubs it. I have to pull the lever and someone else has to pull it up. This means I can't check the coolant level. Everything was fine while driving today with my dad. This only started when I went home. I think my engine is fine, I rethought my drive home and realized it didn't get that hot until I was nearly in my driveway. I'm no longer sure my fans are engaging. I could never hear them over the sound of my engine, I could just tell when the temp dropped lower. Now, it doesn't drop.

NightFlyer
04-12-2014, 11:13 PM
So you think the car really was running that hot? That quickly too? It's a short drive from my parent's to mine... only about 6-7 minutes. There are no hills, I've seen no issues before on this, and there was no steam or anything else that made me question if something was wrong. It may not have been 4-5 minutes... when you're watching a gauge in your car peg like that, it feels like forever. As I mentioned, the whole trip to my parents house is very short, and 90% of the trip is at low speed.

All aluminum engine, yeah, things can heat up rather quickly - especially if there's something wrong. At low speed, you're also not drawing as much unassisted fresh/cool air across the radiator as you would be at higher speeds.

The PRV doesn't react very well to being overheated, and even if the gauge is reading incorrectly, it's not worth wrecking something over IMHO.

Cap seal would just assist in pressurizing the system and lowering the boiling point of the coolant, but would have little to do with actual engine running temps - unless you boiled over and lost a lot of coolant (either puked it on the ground or vaporized, which is actually more difficult to see than you'd think, especially when you're driving the car). Never a bad idea to check the cap though. Also make sure that the spring on the cap isn't rust seized and is fairly easy to compress with your hand - the system is rated at 15lbs according to spec, but a few pounds of pressure above that shouldn't hurt anything.

Step 1 - Confirm system coolant level.
Step 2 - Confirm proper fan operation.

Report back and we'll go from there :)

Boo
04-12-2014, 11:13 PM
When I first got Boo running, the temp gauge went all the way to the top. That was before I knew about the top pass side radiator burp procedure. Once that was done, everything was ok. Now with the new radiator (which was only put in because I had a little seepage at the bottom and I was replacing the condenser so I figured I might as well replace the rad too) it runs even cooler. I would burp/bleed the pass side upper rad hose (the small one). But again, I am the Boo-Boo here. I have a service manual that came with the car but I never looked at it. Living on the edge baby!
;)

Dangermouse
04-12-2014, 11:15 PM
As others suggest, first check the coolant tank level when the engine is cold.

I have the same problem with my engine cover but can catch the edge of the grills with my fingernail while pulling the lever.

Next, jumper your otter stat switch (left hand side of the engine, underneath the car, mounted in one of the coolant pipes. You can reach it easily from the back or side of the car. When jumped, the fans should come on as the circuit thinks that the switch is closed.

If the fans don't come on, then there are other things to check.

Dangermouse
04-12-2014, 11:15 PM
Damn, Josh is a faster typer ;)

NightFlyer
04-12-2014, 11:17 PM
I don't see any fluid in my driveway, I don't think anything is leaking. I can't open the engine cover alone since the bumper rubs it. I have to pull the lever and someone else has to pull it up. This means I can't check the coolant level. Everything was fine while driving today with my dad. This only started when I went home. I think my engine is fine, I rethought my drive home and realized it didn't get that hot until I was nearly in my driveway. I'm no longer sure my fans are engaging. I could never hear them over the sound of my engine, I could just tell when the temp dropped lower. Now, it doesn't drop.

My engine cover is the same way - I use a long screwdriver or a piece of square stock that I have in the garage to pull up on the engine cover as I'm pulling the release.

Boo
04-12-2014, 11:17 PM
I agree with Josh's second point. You CAN run the car and when the temp gets halfway up look under the front to see if the fans are kicking on. And short (no pun intended) of pulling the fan fuse, you could select MAX AC and see if the fans go on, even right when starting the engine cold.
That would rule out a blown fuse or bad connection to the fans, but the otterstat could still be faulty.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-12-2014, 11:21 PM
Does anybody know if a short to ground pegs the dash temp gauge at 260 or straight up? If necessary I'll check on my own car tomorrow.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sedated
04-12-2014, 11:31 PM
I feel a little like a babe in the woods here. My dad is gone every week for work, and I'm just not good yet with working on my car. I'm terrified that something big could be wrong because I've been out of work for a month and can't afford any new costly repairs. Whatever it is with the cooling, it has to be something that just happened. The fluid might be low, since I noticed the car running warmer the last couple days than it used to, but it was never like this until tonight.

NightFlyer
04-12-2014, 11:33 PM
As others suggest, first check the coolant tank level when the engine is cold.

I have the same problem with my engine cover but can catch the edge of the grills with my fingernail while pulling the lever.

Next, jumper your otter stat switch (left hand side of the engine, underneath the car, mounted in one of the coolant pipes. You can reach it easily from the back or side of the car. When jumped, the fans should come on as the circuit thinks that the switch is closed.

If the fans don't come on, then there are other things to check.

Jumping the otter stat will confirm operability of the fans, but not the operability of the thermal reactiveness of the otter state switch itself. Thus, even if you confirm operability of the fans by jumping the otter stat, you'll still want to run it up to temp to confirm operability of the otter stat itself, while noting the temp at which the otter stat is turning the fans on at.


Damn, Josh is a faster typer ;)

I guess I'm pretty good, but I'd hardly call myself fast - especially since I always give the old backspace key a hefty workout :)

sedated
04-12-2014, 11:34 PM
I should add that by warmer I mean it always used to stay in the first quarter of the gauge, and the last couple days it was going up to the middle, then dropping a bit to just about the middle between the first quarter and the half.

NightFlyer
04-12-2014, 11:36 PM
Does anybody know if a short to ground pegs the dash temp gauge at 260 or straight up? If necessary I'll check on my own car tomorrow.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Good question - I can check on my car in an hour.

NightFlyer
04-12-2014, 11:45 PM
I should add that by warmer I mean it always used to stay in the first quarter of the gauge, and the last couple days it was going up to the middle, then dropping a bit to just about the middle between the first quarter and the half.

Anything above 200F is cause for concern IMHO. My car never exceeds about 180F. Remember that the PRV was designed/engineered when the standard/norm was cooler running engines, as opposed to being more like today's engines, which have normal operating temps around 220F.

As there's differences between gauges and calibration of the sending unit, it's best to know what your car usually runs at. Any significant increases above that (+30F) should have you looking for something wrong with the system.

Until you can check some things, there's not much more that we can do now. You hopefully haven't hurt anything yet, but IMHO, you want to discontinue driving the car until you have this issue figured out.

sedated
04-13-2014, 12:10 AM
I won't be driving anywhere in this until it's fixed. I assumed since it always stayed in the "white" it was fine. It may not make a difference, but this is a stage 2 engine with a stainless coolant bottle.

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-13-2014, 12:15 AM
While I am not so sure about the 220 theory, ( if left idling, mine will climb close to 220, then the fans kick on and it lowers) you are correct in not driving it until it's diagnosed. It should never go too far above 220 while sitting and really should never even get close to 220 while moving at speed, if it ever does watch it like a hawk and always shut it off before it gets into the orange. will bet you a HW DeLorean you are low in coolant. If that's the case the more important issue is finding the leak and making sure there is no damage from the overheating.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 01:04 AM
While I am not so sure about the 220 theory, ( if left idling, mine will climb close to 220, then the fans kick on and it lowers) you are correct in not driving it until it's diagnosed. It should never go too far above 220 while sitting and really should never even get close to 220 while moving at speed, if it ever does watch it like a hawk and always shut it off before it gets into the orange. will bet you a HW DeLorean you are low in coolant. If that's the case the more important issue is finding the leak and making sure there is no damage from the overheating.

Stock/OEM thermostat is 180F. If you're running one of these, you'd expect to see a top line temp of around 200F (slightly higher on extremely hot days).

For some reason, DMCH and other vendors started selling/pushing higher temp (195F - 205F) thermostats under the theory that it would push K-jet into closed loop lambda operation sooner and more reliably/consistently so than a lower temp thermostat would, and thus slightly increasing fuel economy. While I don't see this as being a problem per se, I do think it's slightly beyond the temps intended by the designers/engineers of the PRV and other systems on the engine (especially the plastic header bottle). If you're running one of these, then yes, you'd expect to see a top line temp of around 220F (slightly higher on extremely hot days).

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-13-2014, 01:10 AM
Stock/OEM thermostat is 180F. If you're running one of these, you'd expect to see a top line temp of around 200F (slightly higher on extremely hot days).

For some reason, DMCH and other vendors started selling/pushing higher temp (195F - 205F) thermostats under the theory that it would push K-jet into closed loop lambda operation sooner and more reliably/consistently so than a lower temp thermostat would, and thus slightly increasing fuel economy. While I don't see this as being a problem per se, I do think it's slightly beyond the temps intended by the designers/engineers of the PRV and other systems on the engine (especially the plastic header bottle). If you're running one of these, then yes, you'd expect to see a top line temp of around 220F (slightly higher on extremely hot days).

The thermostat does not do anything to keep the engine cool once it opens. When it's open, it's open for good until the flow stops and the engine cools. The otterstat(and mode switch) controls when the fans come on, not the thermostat. Even with a 160 thermostat, the engine temp will still climb and climb(if you leave it idling with no air flow over the radiator) until the otterstat switch engages the fans. I'm pretty sure the otterstat is set at around 207 degrees, but there are aftermarket switches that allow some control over this from 180-240.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 01:27 AM
I won't be driving anywhere in this until it's fixed. I assumed since it always stayed in the "white" it was fine. It may not make a difference, but this is a stage 2 engine with a stainless coolant bottle.

Not a good assumption - but a logical one to make and you honestly didn't know.

While your engine should be OK, the PRV in the DeLorean has proven to be somewhat overly sensitive to being overheated. So now you know :)

Stage 2 doesn't matter, and the SS header bottle merely buys you additional room to overheat and not have to worry about a header bottle failure. It's a theory of mine, albeit an admittedly unproven one, that the original plastic header bottle was originally designed around the 180F running temp standard, and that the primary reason that some owners have experienced plastic bottle failures is from running higher temp thermostats and/or improperly maintained cooling systems over periods of time. If this theory is correct though, then it's all the more reason to make sure that you're cooling system is keeping your running temps below 220F max.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 01:39 AM
The thermostat does not do anything to keep the engine cool once it opens. When it's open, it's open for good until the flow stops and the engine cools. The otterstat(and mode switch) controls when the fans come on, not the thermostat. Even with a 160 thermostat, the engine temp will still climb and climb(if you leave it idling with no air flow over the radiator) until the otterstat switch engages the fans. I'm pretty sure the otterstat is set at around 207 degrees, but there are aftermarket switches that allow some control over this from 180-240.

I never said it did. The thermostat opens and closes (incrementally) based on temperature to warm up (upon a cold start up) and then regulate the minimum operational temperature of the engine. Higher temp thermostat means a higher operational temperature floor for the engine, and thus the whole cooling system.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 02:09 AM
I won't be driving anywhere in this until it's fixed. I assumed since it always stayed in the "white" it was fine. It may not make a difference, but this is a stage 2 engine with a stainless coolant bottle.

Also, don't forget that on the gauge, it turns to red at 240F, the 3/4 mark.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 07:42 AM
Don't know if I've mentioned this yet on the new forum, but both my cars have radiator self bleeders (this is #2508):

1703 1704

Works just like a manual bleed valve, except it's active all the time. It is physically impossible for air to ever get trapped at the top of my radiators. Makes refilling the cooling system a breeze -- no need to ever lay on the ground (or jack the car up, eh Josh?). Also, Dave McKeen once had air get trapped in his radiator after driving up a very steep ramp, so even a properly functioning cooling system can trap air while the car is in use.

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 01:19 PM
Don't know if I've mentioned this yet on the new forum, but both my cars have radiator self bleeders (this is #2508):

1703 1704

Works just like a manual bleed valve, except it's active all the time. It is physically impossible for air to ever get trapped at the top of my radiators. Makes refilling the cooling system a breeze -- no need to ever lay on the ground (or jack the car up, eh Josh?). Also, Dave McKeen once had air get trapped in his radiator after driving up a very steep ramp, so even a properly functioning cooling system can trap air while the car is in use.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yep - I mentioned the issues with driving on steep grades. That's why I personally recommend keeping the header bottle overfilled. Let the car puke out whatever it doesn't want.

I don't run any self bleeders, and have NEVER used the bleed valves on either the radiator or the thermostat housing. My car has always run cool - I've never seen the gauge breach 180F and the fans operate as they should. Yes, I do jack the rear-end up when doing flushes and complete refills, but I only ever do that roughly every 6 years (twice so far under my ownership - I'm actually overdue for a change right now, so as soon as I get the wheel/tires back on and get the car down on the ground from winter storage, I'll be flushing and refilling my system, but have some other things I want to get done before I do that while the whole thing is up in the air on stands).

For reference purposes, this is what I personally do when flushing/refilling the system:

http://store.delorean.com/images/Category/large/1-3-2.gif

Instead of pulling the hoses off the radiator, I prefer to pull the hoses (9 and 16) off the pipes (5 and 18 ) in the engine bay. If you still have a stock/OEM radiator with the plastic side tanks and flanges/collars like I do, the less you pull the radiator hoses off and on, the less problems you'll have later on down the road with the radiator - at least that's my take on it. I then proceed to drain and back-flush the radiator (by using a spray nozzle on a garden hose on the opening to pipe 18, and using the nozzle with a rag wrapped around it to build up some moderate water pressure) and heater core / engine (by pushing water through the disconnected top hose of the header bottle) separately. Up to you if you want to pull the block drain plugs - sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

If you're trying to collect the old coolant, as opposed to simply discharging it onto the ground, then you'd run compressed air through the system during the catch phase, followed by your back-flush with water. Be careful not to put too much pressure through the system, but a moderate amount is necessary to do a good job and won't hurt anything.

After the back-flush, I like to blow the system out again with compressed air, using the air to dry the water from the back-flush, as my garden hose water is quite hard and I want as little of it left in the system as possible before refilling. I refill the system only after it's completely devoid of liquid/fluid, or at least as empty as is reasonably possible.

I then put the drain plugs back in the block and reattach the hoses to their pipes, leaving only the top hose of the header bottle still disconnected. Note that I don't remove any of the hoses near the thermostat / water pump.

I then prepare my coolant mixture in a clean 5 gallon plastic bucket. 40% distilled water, 60% concentrated Prestone DexCool Antifreeze, and a bottle of Prestone Cooling System Treatment (it's a combination corrosion prohibitor and lubricant). I prefer mixing it myself as opposed to buying the premixed 50/50 stuff (no good reason for this - I just do) and always mix up about a half gallon more than I'll actually need. Yeah, I use DexCool (the orange stuff) and have been doing so successfully for the last 12 years, despite what others on the forum have said about it. DO NOT use any kind of sealant tabs or a liquid sealant product unless you want a mess and a plugged up cooling system.

I then use an old (previously flushed) fuel pump and prime it with my coolant mixture in the 5 gallon bucket. Once primed (free of air), I hook the fuel pump up to the still disconnected top hose of the header bottle, using a simple barbed coupler and a couple of hose clamps. I then activate the pump and allow the system to fill until the header bottle is practically full (don't worry about overfilling, as the system will purge whatever it doesn't want).

I then reattach the hose to the top of the header bottle and place whatever mix remains in my 5 gallon bucket into an empty antifreeze jug.

I then jack the rear of the car about 3 feet into the air and position jack stands in the regular locations. Set the HVAC mode switch to the heater or vent positions. I then start the car with the rear end in the air and allow it to get up to temperature (thermostat opening and cooling fans engaging). But always be sure to watch the temp gauge and immediately shut the engine off if you believe you're on the way to overheating. You'll want a bucket under the purge hose from the header bottle unless you're just discharging onto the ground, although the first warm up should result in most of the excess coolant in the header bottle being sucked into the system. After the fans have run for a minute or two, kill the engine. Check and top off the header bottle if needed. Repeat running the engine up to temp, stopping, and checking/topping off the header bottle until you no longer have to top off the header bottle or the header bottle starts dumping a significant amount of coolant out the purge hose and into your catch bucket / on the ground. You should only need to repeat once. Doing this with the rear end in the air purges all the air from the cooling system via the header bottle without having to mess with any of the bleed valves.

I don't run any kind of self-bleeder kit on my car - all 100% stock/OEM (with the exception of the heater control valve - original one developed a leak at the pivot).

Put the rear end back on the ground, top off the header bottle to an over filled level if necessary, and take the car for a good 10-20 minute drive, being mindful of the temperature gauge. At the end of the drive, check the header bottle and top off if needed, leaving it over-filled, but you should be done.

So, that's what I do and it has worked great for me over the years. My car has always run nice and cool, as Steve can confirm (95F ambient temp in bumper-to-bumper slow moving Woodward Dream Cruise traffic for over 90 minutes and my car never breached about 180F) :)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 01:44 PM
I don't run any self bleeders, and have NEVER used the bleed valves on either the radiator or the thermostat housing....

Don't go David Teitelbaum on me.

My self bleeders are in no way harmful. They do not hurt a single thing. The radiator bleeder can not even be argued against aesthetically.

On the plus side: they allow me to simply add coolant then drive the car after system repair or maintenance. They also ensure that air will never ever get trapped in either of the system high spots.

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 02:09 PM
Don't go David Teitelbaum on me.

My self bleeders are in no way harmful. They do not hurt a single thing. The radiator bleeder can not even be argued against aesthetically.

On the plus side: they allow me to simply add coolant then drive the car after system repair or maintenance. They also ensure that air will never ever get trapped in either of the system high spots.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I was personally thinking it was more along the lines of going Martin G on you :p

Of course not - I actually really like your auto-bleeder modification - it's a great, practical, completely hidden, and effective solution to the problems inherent with air in our cooling systems.

I fully endorse it - especially vs the vendor supplied/offered self-bleeding kits (which I personally do not endorse).

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 02:19 PM
None of the vendors offer a radiator self bleeder (so how about it Matt -- is that thing patentable?). They offer inline drain cocks that have to be opened manually, but nothing that bleeds automatically.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sedated
04-13-2014, 02:20 PM
Firstly, thank you everyone for all of the great advice. I've had time today to check everything... there are no leaks. The fans come on at about 180, so they're working correctly. I found the culprit. As you know, this is a fairly recent purchase for me. I forgot one extremely important thing when I checked it out after I bought it. I checked oil, tires, everything but radiator fluid. This morning when I popped the cap off the bottle to look, it was very low. A gallon and a half of radiator fluid later and I'm running cool 100% of the time, even with AC maxed out. I drove around today at lunch time, came home and topped it off. No leaks anywhere, so that means I bought it already low on fluid and the unusually cold temperatures we've had here have been helping to mask it. My dad checked everything out for me, no damage done. I dodged a major bullet. On the plus side, my car is running in top form now.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 02:31 PM
Just checked on my car: short to ground pegs the dash coolant gauge straight up, not to the 260 mark.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-13-2014, 02:40 PM
Glad to hear you are OK. Keep a close eye on the coolant level for the next few weeks and check the oil level often as well.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 02:45 PM
Firstly, thank you everyone for all of the great advice. I've had time today to check everything... there are no leaks. The fans come on at about 180, so they're working correctly. I found the culprit. As you know, this is a fairly recent purchase for me. I forgot one extremely important thing when I checked it out after I bought it. I checked oil, tires, everything but radiator fluid. This morning when I popped the cap off the bottle to look, it was very low. A gallon and a half of radiator fluid later and I'm running cool 100% of the time, even with AC maxed out. I drove around today at lunch time, came home and topped it off. No leaks anywhere, so that means I bought it already low on fluid and the unusually cold temperatures we've had here have been helping to mask it. My dad checked everything out for me, no damage done. I dodged a major bullet. On the plus side, my car is running in top form now.

WOW - Stock/OEM system capacity is 2.9 gal. If you had to add 1.5 gal plus a top off in order to fill the system, that means that your system was over half empty / full of air!

Good to hear that everything is OK, that you figured out the problem, and remedied it :)

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 02:48 PM
Just checked on my car: short to ground pegs the dash coolant gauge straight up, not to the 260 mark.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Darn it - I checked this last night on my car and forgot to post - yep, mine does exactly the same when shorted to ground, but my needle goes slightly past a 12:00 position.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 02:51 PM
Glad to hear you are OK. Keep a close eye on the coolant level for the next few weeks and check the oil level often as well.

Good advice!

I check my coolant level every time I drive the car (partly because I previously had a slight coolant leak due to a leaky heater control valve) because it only takes a few seconds, doesn't hurt anything, and is good practice :)

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 02:54 PM
Just noticed that you guys are using your A/C already?!?!

We're still dropping below freezing over night here in the northern tier :)

Boglin
04-13-2014, 04:22 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/14/u4a7uvar.jpgBeautiful here today!

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 04:29 PM
So how about it Matt: can I patent my radiator self bleeder?

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc
04-13-2014, 04:32 PM
Be sure to carry a spare gallon of coolant with you just to be on the safe side.

Boglin
04-13-2014, 05:12 PM
So how about it Matt: can I patent my radiator self bleeder?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Maybe! It has to be more than a hose clamp and rubber hose, tho!

Boo
04-13-2014, 05:14 PM
I actually really like your auto-bleeder modification - it's a great, practical, completely hidden, and effective solution to the problems inherent with air in our cooling systems.

Wait, Josh admits our cars have inherent problems? Yet he is still running K-Jet and a plastic coolant bottle. Talk about living on the edge!

BTW- 180-200 is normal for a stainless coolant bottle and about 260-300 for a plastic coolant bottle. ;)

sedated
04-13-2014, 05:46 PM
I definitely have some coolant in my trunk now. Also, yes it was 85 here today. I drove by the York river and the beach was packed.

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 06:04 PM
Be sure to carry a spare gallon of coolant with you just to be on the safe side.

That was the one thing that I had with us when we went to Woodward :D

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 06:42 PM
Wait, Josh admits our cars have inherent problems? Yet he is still running K-Jet and a plastic coolant bottle. Talk about living on the edge!

You know me - I'm a wild and crazy guy ;)

Air in any vehicle coolant system poses an inherent problem, but even more so with our systems due to the length. Other systems are also designed infinitely better and automatically purge the air via normal operation, whereas air becomes relatively easily trapped in our systems once introduced and wreak havoc on switch operations.

The plastic header bottle isn't an inherent problem though, as is proven by the many of us who are still running them without issue :)

K-Jet poses an accessibility pain, but it's actually not that bad of a system once you become familiar with it. Dare I say it, but I actually somewhat enjoyed diagnosing and fixing my K-Jet issue - not only did I learn a lot, but you always feel fulfilled when you solve a mystery and successfully fix/repair something! I've also only ever had to fix a K-Jet issue once over 12 years of ownership, and that was of my own doing - improper long term storage.


BTW- 180-200 is normal for a stainless coolant bottle and about 260-300 for a plastic coolant bottle. ;)

Just so anyone else following the thread isn't confused - I know that this was intended as a joke, but I honestly don't get it???

Boo
04-13-2014, 07:00 PM
That's the reason why there was a winky smiley face after the joke. I don't get many jokes here either and sometimes take them wrong. Why can't I joke like so many do here? Is it because I'm overly sensitive? I guess so. :( And you said you wanted to make up. :(

NightFlyer
04-13-2014, 07:28 PM
That's the reason why there was a winky smiley face after the joke. I don't get many jokes here either and sometimes take them wrong. Why can't I joke like so many do here? Is it because I'm overly sensitive? I guess so. :( And you said you wanted to make up. :(

I know it was a joke and said as much.

I think I just figured it out - it's a satirical joke in that you're saying that a plastic bottle has a greater temperature headroom than a stainless bottle, even though the exact opposite would be true, right? Or am I still missing it?

No one said that you couldn't joke around or that you were oversensitive.

Yeah, I do want to make up - that's why I was wondering what the thrust of the joke was?

Boo
04-13-2014, 07:35 PM
It was just a joke with no real "meat" behind it. I dunno Josh, I'm not the kind to have hidden meanings behind much. Hence my punny humor. Everyone was joking about your coolant bottle and you seemed to take it in jest so I figured it was an area that you can have fun with. Let it slide. Michael was the one who posted that I'm sensitive, which is true as I stated in the other post after Matt replied.

Let's just move on OK and let this continue to be a nice place to visit, or live for that matter. :)

Boo
04-13-2014, 07:38 PM
I know it was a joke and said as much.

I think I just figured it out - it's a satirical joke in that you're saying that a plastic bottle has a greater temperature headroom than a stainless bottle, even though the exact opposite would be true, right? Or am I still missing it?

No one said that you couldn't joke around or that you were oversensitive.

Yeah, I do want to make up - that's why I was wondering what the thrust of the joke was?

Taking things too seriously, remember, that's my issue not yours. Lets move on. :)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 07:55 PM
Air in any vehicle coolant system poses an inherent problem, but even more so with our systems due to the length.

Problem isn't length -- it's the high points. In a normal car the top of the radiator is the highest point in the system. Any air quickly finds its way there (clogged coolant passages permitting).

Our front to rear coolant pipes are below the top of the radiator. Any air trapped in the radiator can't get out.

Same with the coolant expansion tank. Even though it is mounted high on the pontoon, its coolant pipe junction is lower than the top of the engine, so any air trapped in the engine or water pump can't find its way into the tank.

Self bleeders attached to the two highest points in the system -- the top of the radiator and the top of the water pump -- ensure that any air will find its way through them to be automatically purged through the expansion tank, which serves the same purpose as the air gap in a normal radiator. Radiator self bleeder does burble & gurgle for a minute or two through the heater core, but the engine doesn't care about the heater core -- as long as the radiator isn't air bound it is happy.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sedated
04-13-2014, 08:50 PM
This from specialtauto says it automatically bleeds air from the system: https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/cooling-system.html

Specifically this part: http://www.specialtauto.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30158LONG

1708

1709

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-13-2014, 08:56 PM
You can make your own a little cheaper.

Thermostat neck bleeder won't help air trapped in the radiator -- you need to make a second bleeder for that.

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
04-14-2014, 02:25 AM
Or you can just properly fill/bleed the system, keep it free of leaks, keep if from overheating, and continuously make sure that the header bottle is filled :)

mluder
04-14-2014, 04:13 AM
This from specialtauto says it automatically bleeds air from the system: https://www.specialtauto.com/delorean-parts/cooling-system.html

Specifically this part: http://www.specialtauto.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=30158LONG



Buy the kit from Toby at DeLorean Parts Northwest. A more reliable vendor and easier to get on the phone if you have any troubles... Plus a super nice guy in general.
His kit comes with everything you need for both the self bleeder at the thermostat housing and the manual bleeder tap at the radiator.
http://www.delorean-parts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DPNW&Product_Code=K1012DP-A&Category_Code=9475


Cheers
Steven

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-14-2014, 08:53 AM
Or you can just properly fill/bleed the system, keep it free of leaks, keep if from overheating, and continuously make sure that the header bottle is filled :)

Unfortunately you won't get an "Amen" from Dave McKeen -- he did all that, and still got air trapped in his radiator after Auto Training to Florida.

For the cost of a brass tee and about 2 feet of rubber hose ($10 maybe?) I have a radiator self bleeder that guarantees air will never get trapped in the radiator even if you rotate the car like a barbeque spit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Boo
04-14-2014, 11:51 AM
Or you can just properly fill/bleed the system, keep it free of leaks, keep if from overheating, and continuously make sure that the header bottle is filled :)

Wouldn't it be nicer and smarter to have a "fool proof", "self air releasing" bleeder system as Bill has fashioned? Just because you have to continuously undergo meticulous maintenance and got lucky by not having air trappage doesn't mean every owner is as meticulous or will be so lucky, as Bill pointed out with Dave M. I have the Bill bleeder at the thermostat housing, but not at the rad....yet.

Bill's awesome bleeder system:
Foolproof, perhaps. Concourse, perhaps not.
:)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-14-2014, 12:13 PM
I rigged up my radiator self bleeder in 2002, after the bleeder barb snapped off my plastic channel radiator while trying to bleed it (a condition that is repairable BTW, but not by tapping the tank like everyone thinks). I never wanted to disturb that nipple ever again, so I created a bleeder that was active all the time.

Factory setup is another example of something that looked good on paper, but just doesn't work in real life. In theory coolant rushing out of the radiator is supposed to pull trapped air *DOWNHILL* (back to the water pump where it will create another air pocket...). In actual practice air just sits there of course.

One advantage of a radiator self bleeder is you can replace the pipe that is so hard to install with a piece of hose.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sedated
04-14-2014, 01:35 PM
So Bill is volunteering to make everyone a self-bleeder, right? Did I hear that right? (just kidding of course). I had the good fortune to meet SamHill and his dad today, a nice visit and good to see another Delorean. My girlfriend was outside and came in saying "Another Delorean just went down the street! What are the odds of that!?" I also got to see the Bill Robertson Special carb kit on his car.

stevedmc
04-14-2014, 02:25 PM
"Another Delorean just went down the street! What are the odds of that!?"

Get used to it. It becomes a pretty common thing when you are part of this community.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-14-2014, 03:53 PM
I gave one to Farrar....

Brass fittings from McMaster are only a buck or two apiece, but you do have to buy them in 5 to 10 unit lots. I've got lots of leftovers from building my heater core takeoff tee (helpful hint: factory steel tees rust though and leak):

1712 1713

If Steve and I pay Brandon another visit I'd be more than happy to bring you a couple. I also am more than happy to help you install the radiator tee. I steadfastly refuse to deal with the heater core takeoff if K-Jet is still in place.

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
04-14-2014, 04:51 PM
Unfortunately you won't get an "Amen" from Dave McKeen -- he did all that, and still got air trapped in his radiator after Auto Training to Florida.

For the cost of a brass tee and about 2 feet of rubber hose ($10 maybe?) I have a radiator self bleeder that guarantees air will never get trapped in the radiator even if you rotate the car like a barbeque spit.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I mentioned Dave M.'s incident on the AutoTrain. The grade of the AutoTrain ramp probably shifted all the coolant in the header bottle towards the back of the car, exposing the outflow hose to air, and thus allowing air to infiltrate the system there. Unless you're typically experiencing 38+ degree grades while you're driving your car, this shouldn't be an issue. Or if you do, you could just 1) always keep the header bottle overfilled, and/or 2) if such grades are a common experience for your car, you could also baffle the header bottle to prevent shifts of the coolant in the bottle to drop below the level of the outflow hose when such grades are experienced, and/or 3) replace the header bottle with one that orients vertically as opposed to horizontally, and/or 4) when experiencing such grades, back up them as opposed to driving up them.

Case in point, my grandparent's driveway is a very steep grade - at least 30 degrees if not more. I've always backed my car up their driveway when visiting, and never had an issue with air infiltration of the system. I also keep my header bottle over-filled.

Or you can run auto bleeders like Bill does :cool:

sedated
04-14-2014, 05:25 PM
I don't want to put anyone out, though when I am able to put one together myself, I'd appreciate the guidance :)

Boo
04-14-2014, 05:47 PM
I'm sure Bill would be more than happy to walk you through it. I'dlike to do one too, but is rather not buy 10 tees plus shipping for one rad bleed. Maybe I can find one in HD or Lowes. Bill please
post the exact sizes of the three ends on the tee needed for the upper rad bleed, if you haven't done so already.
(Or you COULD send me one with a few of the decals I've been begging for) I'll pay you shipping !
Shipping for just some decals would only be a postage stamp. They could be put in a making envelope, maybe not the large one for my tool chest but the 2x3 one for my cell phone case anyway. I do advertise your services when people notice the decal on my cell phone case, even though its half peeled off and very small. But I have a feeling you will ignore this HINT at sending me decals.
Thanks a mil...
Louis

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-14-2014, 06:59 PM
You can use PEX tees. PEX 3/8 is 5/16 actual. Lowes sells 3/8 PEX tees for $2.06 (Part #394260).

Heater core lines are 5/8". PEX 3/4 is 5/8 actual. Lowes sells a 3/4x3/4x1/2 PEX tee that could be used for a radiator bleeder (Part #314734). PEX 1/2 is 3/8 actual -- a piece of 5/16 hose will slide on with lubricant.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Boo
04-14-2014, 07:26 PM
There's always time for lubricant!
From the hilarious movie "Evolution".
:)

Here's the clip. It's in about 1:12 into this video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XSmF6CbBlog

I do recommend this movie. For people who like to laugh anyway.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-16-2014, 11:52 AM
While I had the fuel pump cover off I snapped a pic of #5939's radiator bleeder Tee:

1733

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
04-19-2014, 09:38 PM
None of the vendors offer a radiator self bleeder (so how about it Matt -- is that thing patentable?). They offer inline drain cocks that have to be opened manually, but nothing that bleeds automatically.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Wrong.

http://www.delorean-parts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DPNW&Product_Code=K1017DP&Category_Code=9475

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-19-2014, 09:42 PM
You dare correct the Robertosn!

NightFlyer
04-19-2014, 09:48 PM
It wouldn't be a DeLorean forum if someone wasn't giving Bill a hard time :)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-19-2014, 10:25 PM
Wrong.

http://www.delorean-parts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DPNW&Product_Code=K1017DP&Category_Code=9475

Dear Lord, please don't let Josh ever represent me in court.

That isn't a self bleeder -- it's an inline drain cock. You still have to lay on the ground and get a face full of coolant. Only the patent pending Robertsonian self bleeder automatically bleeds your radiator "without even looking at the damn thing" (marketing slogan to be trademarked).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
04-22-2014, 02:01 PM
"Without even looking at the damn thing" sounds like a marketing slogan from the company that gave us those wonderful automotive additives "Start Ya Bastard" and "Fer Chrissake Come On."

NightFlyer
04-22-2014, 02:35 PM
Dear Lord, please don't let Josh ever represent me in court.

That isn't a self bleeder -- it's an inline drain cock. You still have to lay on the ground and get a face full of coolant. Only the patent pending Robertsonian self bleeder automatically bleeds your radiator "without even looking at the damn thing" (marketing slogan to be trademarked).

Bill Robertson
#5939

I was just messing with you :)

Serious question though - because of this modification, do you notice decreased heater temperatures at all?

Boglin
04-22-2014, 05:48 PM
I was just messing with you :)

Serious question though - because of this modification, do you notice decreased heater temperatures at all?

I have to admit I don't understand this well either. Why is it OK to have a heater core full of air? :) Is it because as long as it's hot air, no one cares? That's my most educated guess.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
04-22-2014, 06:41 PM
It's pretty obvious Bill doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Just do the opposite of anything he does and your car will be perfect (ignore the 12 years and nearly 100,000 miles he's driven -- that's just dumb luck).

There's a right way to fix and maintain these cars, and there's Bill's way. If you want your car to run right, choose the former. Extra money and effort are a small price to pay.

Thank goodness Bill has been banished from most online forums. Long time owners know there's only one right way to do everything on these cars, but new owners don't know that. Just imagine if they were to listen to him -- their cars would be ruined!

"DPO" (Dreaded Previous Owner) should be changed to "DBO" -- Dreaded Bill Owner.

The sooner Bill is exiled and never heard from again, the better off everyone else will be. The man is a mechanical menace. It's only a matter of time until he kills someone.

FWIW: my radiator self bleeder is attached to the heater core return line. Air bled from from the radiator returns to the water pump, thence via the thermostat neck bleeder to the coolant expansion tank. But don't take my word for it....

Bill Robertson
#5939

Boo
04-22-2014, 06:44 PM
It's pretty obvious Bill doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Just do the opposite of anything he does and your car will be perfect (ignore the 12 years and nearly 100,000 miles he's driven -- that's just dumb luck).

There's a right way to fix and maintain these cars, and there's Bill's way. If you want your car to run right, choose the former. Extra money and effort are a small price to pay.

Thank goodness Bill has been banished from most online forums. Long time owners know there's only one right way to do everything on these cars, but new owners don't know that. Just imagine if they were to listen to him -- their cars would be ruined!

"DPO" (Dreaded Previous Owner) should be changed to "DBO" -- Dreaded Bill Owner.

The sooner Bill is exiled and never heard from again, the better off everyone else will be. The man is a mechanical menace. It's only a matter of time until he kills someone.

Bill Robertson
#5939
I respect you Bill.

stevedmc
04-23-2014, 08:38 AM
I say we start a poll. Should Bill be banned?

Boglin
04-23-2014, 08:46 AM
I say we start a poll. Should Bill be banned?

Banned? I say death by french toast.

stevedmc
04-23-2014, 08:49 AM
I suppose I could French toast him to death at the Tanner meet.

NightFlyer
04-23-2014, 04:40 PM
It's pretty obvious Bill doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Just do the opposite of anything he does and your car will be perfect (ignore the 12 years and nearly 100,000 miles he's driven -- that's just dumb luck).

There's a right way to fix and maintain these cars, and there's Bill's way. If you want your car to run right, choose the former. Extra money and effort are a small price to pay.

Thank goodness Bill has been banished from most online forums. Long time owners know there's only one right way to do everything on these cars, but new owners don't know that. Just imagine if they were to listen to him -- their cars would be ruined!

"DPO" (Dreaded Previous Owner) should be changed to "DBO" -- Dreaded Bill Owner.

The sooner Bill is exiled and never heard from again, the better off everyone else will be. The man is a mechanical menace. It's only a matter of time until he kills someone.

FWIW: my radiator self bleeder is attached to the heater core return line. Air bled from from the radiator returns to the water pump, thence via the thermostat neck bleeder to the coolant expansion tank. But don't take my word for it....

Bill Robertson
#5939

Everyone here LOVES Bill and Bill knows it :)

I LOVE Bill's mod - especially how they're often low cost, practical, and actually do improve the engineering shortfalls that the cars suffered from. And that he freely shares them with everyone and is always willing to answer to questions about them.

Thanks for clearing that up - so the bleed hose is 't' into the heater core return line, which goes directly to the water pump. And it's obviously working for you, so who can disagree with 12 years and 100k miles?

Not me :)

Just that little extra bit of height apparently does make a huge difference. I'll still be jacking my rear end in the air when I service the cooling system every 6 years though - it's free and easy to do ;)

Dead Lesbian Goat
04-23-2014, 09:54 PM
Everyone here LOVES Bill and Bill knows it :)

Correction...Nobody loves Bill more than Bill and everyone knows it...except maybe Lou, he may love Bill more.