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Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 07:41 AM
Just heard from Byrne that the first passenger side torsion units are at the fabricator right now. He's going to offer a package deal on both doors.

Byrne's design is ingenuous. Rather than twisting and torquing a solid metal bar, he twists and torques a custom made spring (I originally thought the springs were off the shelf, but Byrne claims they are custom wound for this application):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-73qKHHtSCM
I've seen Byrne's car in person. His driver door does indeed work as pictured.

Metal rods don't like to twist and torque. Even super duper Grumman torsion bars eventually break (check out the Pennebaker scene where Chuck Benington is informing JZD of premature torsion bar failures). Conventional wisdom holds that mere surface scratches exacerbate the problem.

Spring coils, however, are made to move, usually longitudinally but their metallurgy accommodates radial twisting just as well. And they are very tolerant of impacts and abuse -- when was the last time you ever heard someone warn "be very careful not to scratch your front suspension springs."

I am going to put a pair of Byrne's torsion units on #2508. A real world review should be available this fall (I might drive #2508 to DCS'14 if people want to see them in person).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Boglin
07-10-2013, 12:26 PM
Nothing against Byrne, but between these and his door strut brackets, he's helping make the DeLorean look more like a kit car.

The original torsion bar is complex to mfg, but very elegant. It is a conversation piece seeing how it had its own patented process developed for it. It has a story.

The door strut brackets are functionally great, but cosmetically they look like an afterthought in the design of the car - similar to the way doc's time machine parts look on the car - everything screwed and glued, no integration.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 03:21 PM
Little boys should be seen and not heard.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Kevin
07-10-2013, 08:39 PM
Nothing against Byrne, but between these and his door strut brackets, he's helping make the DeLorean look more like a kit car.

The original torsion bar is complex to mfg, but very elegant. It is a conversation piece seeing how it had its own patented process developed for it. It has a story.

The door strut brackets are functionally great, but cosmetically they look like an afterthought in the design of the car - similar to the way doc's time machine parts look on the car - everything screwed and glued, no integration.

I get what you mean, Matt, I wish Bill would've provided an actual argument instead of directing a little quip your way, I'm interested to hear the other side. But I guess it's subjective, more of a folks who value design vs. folks who value utility thing.

I debated with the decision to put the door strut brackets on my car because as an engineer, I too prefer a solution less like a band-aid. But in the end I just didn't want to go through the trouble of putting Grady's bracket on, and I realized I didn't really notice the gutter area anyway so I went with these brackets for the ease of installation. I actually just finished installing them today, it's great not having that nagging worry about my fiberglass cracking.

Like you said, Matt, nothing against Byrne, he's clearly doing some nice work to try and solve these problems, I've got his LCAs and used his heat shields in the past and they're great. I'm looking forward to Bill's review of these torsion units. Our bars may break at any moment and we'll need something.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 09:11 PM
Byrne's strut brackets are designed to be an easy install alternative to more difficult to install brackets already on the market from at least 3 different sources (Grady, Bengston, Uding), all of which are identical to each other. If you don't want to go to all the trouble of removing body panels, Byrne's brackets are the only ready made alternative. If you don't like them, don't buy them. If you prefer the traditional alternatives, there are multiple sources of those.

Byrne's door torsion units are a radical departure from the Grumman bars (which *DO* break, thank you very much). Whereas DMOCO tried to replicate what Grumman did, Byrne pursued a totally different technology. I happen to think his solution was not only ingenuous, but also so obvious that it's a mystery the car's original designers failed to recognize it. I for one am looking forward to not having torsion bars that need to be treated like porcelain dolls (and for the purists, #5939 will still have its Gumman bars, and a set of spares freed up from #2508).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Kevin
07-10-2013, 09:21 PM
Thanks, Bill, good points. I'm glad Byrne's providing these other options, those brackets were a breeze to install. And yes I'll be glad when I'm no longer afraid to breathe on my torsion bars.

Chris 16409
07-10-2013, 09:24 PM
I've also installed Byrne's door strut brackets and believe they are more then an acceptable option to fix this particular problem. I had no desired to remove quarter panels and do fiberglass repair. Truthfully, once they are painted black you don't really notice them much.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 10:05 PM
If Byrne had made his strut brackets just like everyone else's there would be 4 sources of the same product, and still no easy to install alternative.

Seems disingenuous to criticize Byrne for not making yet another copy of what was already available instead of making something that was not yet available. Same principle as criticizing Matt for making a different style alternator adjusting bracket instead of making yet another traditional style bracket.

FWIW: if you have rudimentary fabrication skills I don't see any reason you couldn't make your own Byrne style strut brackets. Just in terms of cutting and welding they are not complex at all. If I ever need one, I will likely make my own.

His passenger side door torsion unit requires a very unique spring (coils wound in the opposite direction of every other spring I've ever seen). I have no idea where to get custom springs made. Even if I wanted to make my own torsion units, that alone would stymie me. For the combined package price, and a guarantee that they will work properly straight out of the box, I willingly paid for ready made units.

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc
07-10-2013, 10:16 PM
Heninger's door torsion units could end up being the next Toby TAB. My torsion bars are working fine, but I am very tempted to pickup a set of these torsion unites next time I am at his house. Heninger makes quality stuff and he has been working with these cars for at least 20 years now. He isn't a punk kid like I am. He actually knows what he is doing.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 10:21 PM
Byrne doesn't do his own fabrication. He has a machine shop or two (or three) doing the actual metal work.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Kevin
07-10-2013, 10:56 PM
If Byrne had made his strut brackets just like everyone else's there would be 4 sources of the same product, and still no easy to install alternative.

Seems disingenuous to criticize Byrne for not making yet another copy of what was already available instead of making something that was not yet available. Same principle as criticizing Matt for making a different style alternator adjusting bracket instead of making yet another traditional style bracket.

For the record, the specific argument being made was NOT that Byrne should have copied another product, rather more about the aesthetics of the chosen design. But like Chris said, once the rivets are painted, it's not a big deal. But yes, it could be seen as disingenuous if someone criticized Byrne for not copying a product. No one is criticizing Byrne, and no one is criticizing Matt for his alternator bracket, because we're all for having a wide array of options for better parts.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 11:09 PM
Here's something for DMCToday's pontificators and prevaricators to think about:

NOS driver side torsion bars are NLA -- haven't been available for several years now.

Irrespective of whether DMOCO's bars were suitable substitutes (some people argued they weren't), Patrick isn't making any more -- once his stock is gone, it's gone.

Unless someone else starts making torsion bars, in the event of future failure you will have two options:
- Used bar scavenged from a parts car (how close will that bar be to breaking, just like your now broken bar?)
- Byrne's radically different unit

Either learn to stomach what Byrne hath wrought, or roll your dice with someone else's bar.

How many people look into that 1 inch crack at the top of the door anyway? As soon as the door opens most people look into the passenger cockpit. I know I do (I may have seen cars with Byrne torsion units without ever realizing it). Same goes for the strut ball. If the only thing you look at when the door opens is the torsion bar and the strut ball, I could have saved myself a lot of time and trouble recovering my seats, dying the carpets, and painting the console.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Kevin
07-10-2013, 11:25 PM
No one's pontificating here but you, Bill. I've already said I'll welcome any new torsion bar solution because it may be the only one we have. I think you're taking what we said a little too extremely, you seem to be taking this very hard. No one is saying they'll refuse to use a solution that doesn't look and work exactly like the old one. No one is saying they only look at the torsion bar and strut ball when they open a door, but you can't deny they're not visible, and that's all folks are saying.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-10-2013, 11:32 PM
Doesn't matter to me one bit: I've been promised the first passenger side torsion unit fabricated (I'm getting a driver's side unit too as a package price bonus). From that point forward I will have non-brittle torsion units on #2508, and spare OEM bars for #5939 -- I will be set for the rest of my motoring life.

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
07-11-2013, 12:27 AM
For anyone that doesn't like the appearance of Byrne's torsion units, couldn't you just cover it with a black nylon/fabric loom?

Personally I love the concept of the spring, and although I hope I'll never need new torsion units for my car, it's nice to know that such a product exists should I end up needing/wanting them someday.

Big two thumbs up on Byrne's torsion units from me! :)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-22-2013, 04:36 PM
This is reportedly the first passenger side torsion unit:

338

One of the pitfalls of being an early adopter: passenger side square end was made by simply cutting two points off a hex bar (look closely at the upper torsion unit). While this does fit, I doubt wider public purchase will be happy with it. Basically it's like a DD shaft -- two sides do all the work. I am seriously considering running some weld beads and filing them into a proper square shape. If Byrne won't disallow return/refund should the unit itself not work (I don't see why it wouldn't), I'll do it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Boglin
07-22-2013, 06:18 PM
I guess on a DeLorean, the driver-side torsion bar is a little longer. LOL ;)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-22-2013, 06:49 PM
That's just weird curvature of the World's Cheapest Digital Camera's lens (and the way protective electrical tape was wrapped):
339
Units are same length.

You have already shown your bias, but you can kiss my butt -- at least I've got one. Byrne isn't getting any younger. One of these days we are going to wake up to find that he has gone to his great reward. When (not if) that happens, I will rest easy knowing I got torsion units while they were still available.

He also cut me a discount price on the pair (well less than a single DMOCO bar).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Boglin
07-22-2013, 06:56 PM
We can weld that end up the way you want when you come up to install your stainless alternator tensioner. :)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-22-2013, 06:58 PM
BTW: It is an unusual experience grabbing these units together in one hand and toting them around like a couple of barbells without fear of surface scratches. Very different from Grumman bars.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-22-2013, 07:05 PM
We can weld that end up the way you want when you come up to install your stainless alternator tensioner. :)

I have a welder. (I've also got a 180 amp stick welder on the truck). They may not make the prettiest welds in the world, but I can join two pieces of steel together such that they never come apart.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
07-23-2013, 01:27 AM
When did Byrne come out with the other side? I thought he only had the driver's side. Man, I wish I had the money to buy a pair of these to keep on the shelf for when (not if) my original torsion bars snap or give up. Wow!

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-23-2013, 07:27 AM
I got the first one. Guessing it was welded up last week.

Have you ever seen a spring wound in that direction (coils spiraling counter clockwise)? Byrne claims these springs are custom wound for him. Since springs on both sides otherwise match, appears he is telling the truth.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
07-23-2013, 12:25 PM
It sure looks good. I wish I had the money so I could buy a pair and have that peace of mind. Unfortunately, I don't have a spare of anything right now... not even a spare fuel pump.

NightFlyer
07-23-2013, 04:43 PM
What's the out the door price on the pair?

Chris 16409
10-17-2016, 01:32 AM
I also bought a set of these bars to keep as backup. They were around $900 for the set. With rumors of Byrne's retirement, I decided I'd better get a set before they were no longer available. It seems now he's staying in business for the time being. Oh well, now I have piece of mind.

stevedmc
10-28-2018, 11:14 AM
I finally got around to installing my set this morning.

The driver side installed perfect and I got the tension just right on the first try. I'm a very happy camper with the driver side.

Unfortunately, the passenger side isn't square on the end that goes into the door hinge. I was able to install it, but the second I shut the door it rotated inside the hinge and made a popping noise. The end of the shaft on the passenger side unit needs to be square.

I am going to have to find someone that can weld it and then I'll file it to be perfectly square. Otherwise, it will just slip again.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/3d615f2db8186db255fbbecc20899c1e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/810587066b4c6c28beaa395af49a76c5.jpg

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AugustneverEnds
10-28-2018, 07:51 PM
Wow that doesn't even look close to a square. That sucks. I wish I had a passenger side bar to give you.

stevedmc
10-28-2018, 08:02 PM
Wow that doesn't even look close to a square. That sucks. I wish I had a passenger side bar to give you.

It's pretty bad. I'm sure if Heninger was in business today, he would replace it in a heart beat. Unfortunately he closed up shop a couple of years ago for health reasons. I wouldn't dare call him up to talk about something like this when he has real problems to worry about. He may not even be alive anymore for all I know. He was 84 years old when I purchased this part and that was at least three years ago.

No worries though. My dad is a retired welder and he is convinced it will be fine after I get someone to weld some metal on there to file down.

AugustneverEnds
10-28-2018, 08:11 PM
It's pretty bad. I'm sure if Heninger was in business today, he would replace it in a heart beat. Unfortunately he closed up shop a couple of years ago for health reasons. I wouldn't dare call him up to talk about something like this when he has real problems to worry about. He may not even be alive anymore for all I know. He was 84 years old when I purchased this part and that was at least three years ago.

No worries though. My dad is a retired welder and he is convinced it will be fine after I get someone to weld some metal on there to file down.

I had heard he was no longer in business and his health was the primary reason. At least you have a plan to make it work.

You wrote the driver's side went in without a cinch; does it bounce at the top of its travel? I just watched the video at the beginning of this thread and the door seemed to bounce quite a bit. I plan on being a wuss and torqueing the replacement bars as weakly as possible that will still open the doors at least halfway, if I have to use some arm strength to open the doors fully so be it.

stevedmc
10-28-2018, 08:14 PM
I had heard he was no longer in business and his health was the primary reason. At least you have a plan to make it work.

You wrote the driver's side went in without a cinch; does it bounce at the top of its travel? I just watched the video at the beginning of this thread and the door seemed to bounce quite a bit. I plan on being a wuss and torqueing the replacement bars as weakly as possible that will still open the doors at least halfway, if I have to use some arm strength to open the doors fully so be it.Mine seems to open perfect with very little bounce. I could tweek it to be firmer or softer but I'm not going to.

The proceedure that was posted on here where you barely touch the glass with the bracket worked perfect for me on the driver side.

As soon as I repair my passenger side torsion unit I will use the exact same procedure to install it.

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Chris 16409
10-30-2018, 12:23 AM
Here are some pictures of my bars. My passenger side bar looks a bit better than Steve's.

9764

9765

stevedmc
10-30-2018, 01:59 AM
Here are some pictures of my bars. My passenger side bar looks a bit better than Steve's.

9764

9765I'm jelous.

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