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View Full Version : Bricklin VS DeLorean VS Fiero - My New Video Project



Dracula
07-03-2013, 02:40 PM
Having all three cars at once offers me a unique opportunity; I'm going to park the three side-by-side and compare them as cars. If anyone has any suggestions of features that they'd like to see the similarities or differences illustrated, I'd be glad to do so and welcome all input I can get prior to starting filming of this project.

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 03:14 PM
As I understand it, you have a stage II engine in your DeLorean.

Is your Bricklin an AMC 360 or the 351 Ford Windsor?

And what engine do you have in the Fiero?

I don't know if this is within the scope of this project, but personally, I think it would be cool to take all three down to Great Lakes Dragaway just outside Union Grove and run each one down the quarter mile. Not beating on them (no burnouts) - just running them flat out.

If you wanted to wait to do this until the end of the month, I could even go with you and assist in filming or running the cars, as I'll be near Burlington July 27 - August 3. I'll take my stock engined D down the strip as well. Would be a lot of fun!

Dracula
07-03-2013, 03:23 PM
That is correct; my DeLorean is a Stage II car. My Bricklin is a '75 with the 351. The Fiero is the measely 4-speed 4-Cly; the only engine available in '84.

Your idea of the dragway run is excellent; at least for a partial segment. It would also be interesting to have a stock VS Stage II quarter mile time trial; something I don't believe has ever been done before.

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 03:48 PM
That is correct; my DeLorean is a Stage II car. My Bricklin is a '75 with the 351. The Fiero is the measely 4-speed 4-Cly; the only engine available in '84.

Your idea of the dragway run is excellent; at least for a partial segment. It would also be interesting to have a stock VS Stage II quarter mile time trial; something I don't believe has ever been done before.

Cool - sounds like a plan then! I'll be in contact towards the end of the month.

Stainless
07-03-2013, 04:03 PM
It would be sweet if someone had the means to include a Lotus Esprit in this video too. Good luck!

stainlessbullet
07-03-2013, 05:34 PM
Sounds like a cool idea Chad. What kind of power / torque does the Bricklin put out? More or less than your Stage II?

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-03-2013, 06:09 PM
Bricklin was productionized by Americans to compete with the Corvette. DeLorean was productionized by Europeans to compete with Loti/Alpines/Fiats etc (those were the comparison cars DMC was buying during Lotus' development).

Bricklin was developed in 11 months on a $26 million budget ($38 million 1978 equivalent). DeLorean was developed in 24 plus months on a $120 million budget.

Other than doors that open upwards, the two cars have very little in common.

I intend to visit Terry Tanner (Bricklin's Colin Chapman, except ethical and honest) in Bedford while he's still alive, if anyone wants to come along. I spoke with him for several hours at DCS'10, which only whet my appetite. If I learned nothing else from DMA's David Cammack visit it's that you have to grab these opportunities while they still exist.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
07-03-2013, 06:45 PM
I intend to visit Terry Tanner

When will that be, Bill? I'd love to meet him and listen to his stories.

Dracula
07-03-2013, 07:59 PM
Sounds like a cool idea Chad. What kind of power / torque does the Bricklin put out? More or less than your Stage II?

The Bricklin is supposed to have 175 HP and 286 Ft. Lbs. for torque; The Stage II DeLorean is SUPPOSED to be around 200 HP; though, I can't say with 100% certainty. I don't think that the torque figure has ever been released, either.

I've never actually met Terry Tanner or gone to any of the Bricklin-specific events; I'm looking forward to the big show in 2014, though.

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 08:33 PM
Here's other ideas, if interested:

You could do a whole segment on what to expect from ownership perspective video including POV shots driving each car while providing a running commentary comparing/contrasting against the others.

You could do a segment where you take each car to local car shows / cruise nights and capture public reaction.

You could show a segment of a trip to an auto parts store like AutoZone/Napa/etc to compare/contrast the ease of finding over-the-counter parts for each car, as well as a trip to a bone yard to show the same.

You could do a segment where you pack up clothes/supplies for a week excursion and load them into each car to show the luggage capacity of each.

You could do a segment on the female perspective towards each car.

You could do a segment showcasing the different films that each car is known for and contrasting the public knowledge/perception/reactions/fandom of each.

Dracula
07-03-2013, 09:24 PM
Here's other ideas, if interested:

Definitely interested in some of these; here are my opinions on the individual ideas:


You could do a whole segment on what to expect from ownership perspective video including POV shots driving each car while providing a running commentary comparing/contrasting against the others.

This was going to be the basis of my video comparison. Technical features and data are meaningless without context.


You could do a segment where you take each car to local car shows / cruise nights and capture public reaction.

Interesting; would require a hidden camera, but could be fun. Though, I can sum it up here:
DeLorean: 75% BTTF Jokes
Fiero: I knew someone with one of these; neat cars.
Bricklin: What is it?


You could show a segment of a trip to an auto parts store like AutoZone/Napa/etc to compare/contrast the ease of finding over-the-counter parts for each car, as well as a trip to a bone yard to show the same.

Very neat and original. Definitely worth doing.


You could do a segment where you pack up clothes/supplies for a week excursion and load them into each car to show the luggage capacity of each.

Also a great idea; this, too merits demonstration.


You could do a segment on the female perspective towards each car.

I'd need a female opinion besides that of my girlfriend.


You could do a segment showcasing the different films that each car is known for and contrasting the public knowledge/perception/reactions/fandom of each.

I don't want it to turn into a film highlighting BTTF; the film roles of the other two have been minor and neither really had a starring role that compares; I may mention a tad of this in a Top Gear-esque voiceover at the start, so still a worthwhile suggestion.

This is some great advice that is going to make for an excellent video; limited only by my ability to edit it.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-03-2013, 10:00 PM
... You could show a segment of a trip to an auto parts store like AutoZone/Napa/etc to compare/contrast the ease of finding over-the-counter parts for each car, as well as a trip to a bone yard to show the same....

There is a tremendous amount of AMC in the Bricklin. Front suspension is 100% AMC. Differential and rear axles are AMC. Side markers are AMC. HVAC controls are AMC.

Window regulators are International Harvester.

Trivia: concept car (Bricklin's version of Proto 1) had manually operated doors that used International Harvester butterfly hood mechanisms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HsZ8JrCKk

Terry makes fiberglass panels for the entire car if you want to get rid of the acrylic panels.

He also makes a very nice full length console.

And of course pneumatic door cylinders. Original production hydraulic cylinders are Mustang convertible top cylinders. That's why they move so slowly. Automatic doors were a last minute design change and Terry had to scramble to source something that works. Being an ex Ford engineer he called in favors from his previous employer.

Speaking of Ford: there is misinformation about the engine change that Terry set straight for me. AMC would only commit to 6 months engine supply in 1975. Remember that 1974 was AMC's best sales year in a quarter century: 431,798 vehicles. AMC was afraid that it would need as many V8's as possible for its own use. Of course Bricklin couldn't go into a full model year with only 6 months engine supply, so Terry again called in favors from his ex colleagues at Ford. It was a colossal PITA to engineer in the Ford drivetrain at the eleventh hour (Bricklin also purchased Ford's FMX transmission in lieu of the AMC sourced Chrysler units, and driveshafts had to be designed to mate to the AMC differential).

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 10:12 PM
I don't want it to turn into a film highlighting BTTF; the film roles of the other two have been minor and neither really had a starring role that compares; I may mention a tad of this in a Top Gear-esque voiceover at the start, so still a worthwhile suggestion.

I agree about not focusing on / highlighting BTTF.

My idea was more about recognizing that the other two marques were prominently used in cinema just as much as the DeLorean was in BTTF, and even highlighting the DeLorean's non-BTTF film roles.

The Bricklin had staring roles in some quintessential H.B. Halicki films and was prominently featured in a few others!

Demon Seed (1977)
The Junkman (1982)
Deadline Auto Theft (1983)
Hobo With a Shotgun (2011)

And the Fiero is a generational icon that had appearances in tons of film/tv roles, and was recently highlighted as such in the Adam Sandler film 'That's My Boy' (2012)

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 10:26 PM
I know that many DeLorean enthusiasts were upset at Malcolm Bricklin's interview wherein he accused John DeLorean of basically ripping off his ideas and design concepts (after supposedly unsuccessfully trying to buy them), and rightfully so - especially seeing as how Bricklin waited to do this until after John's death.

However, one thing I always thought kind of provided Bricklin with some supporting evidence is that an early DeLorean mule was actually named and branded as the 'DeLorean Safety Vehicle' or 'DSV' - remarkably similar to Bricklin's chosen model name of 'Safety Vehicle 1' or 'SV-1.'

http://m.blog.hu/de/delorean/image/evolucio/dsv3.jpg

Dracula
07-03-2013, 10:33 PM
That, while true, may have played more to the fact that both men were apt to pursue any potential source for funding; government and insurance companies providing handouts for proposed safety vehicles is as tempting as the money offered out today to electric car makers. In the end, neither truly focused on safety with their car.

Duplicate Account
07-03-2013, 10:41 PM
That, while true, may have played more to the fact that both men were apt to pursue any potential source for funding; government and insurance companies providing handouts for proposed safety vehicles is as tempting as the money offered out today to electric car makers. In the end, neither truly focused on safety with their car.

I still want to see Mr Tanner's operations one day

stevedmc
07-03-2013, 10:43 PM
I've got no clue what you guys are talking about but I totally dig that background music in the video Bill posted. Gee its great to be a troll again.

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 11:00 PM
I've got no clue what you guys are talking about but I totally dig that background music in the video Bill posted.

I was thinking the same thing myself :)

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
07-03-2013, 11:03 PM
... In the end, neither truly focused on safety with their car.

Terry and his team went helluva lot farther than Lotus did.

Bricklin:
- Integrated roll cage
- Very high side impact sills (steel channel underneath)
- Solid urethane bumpers mounted on shock absorbers
- No cigarette lighter

Terry told me a funny story about that last one. Nobody on the design team smoked (nor did Malcom Bricklin). Basically they forgot to put in both a cigarette lighter and an ash tray. When this was finally pointed out they were too far into pre-production, so they made up the story about smoking while driving being unsafe.

I wonder how many DeLorean owners have ever noticed that their highly over rated "crumple extension" is actually *BELOW* the front bumper (front piece of foam). Unless you hit something 5 inches off the ground, your only protection is a warped fascia, aforementioned piece of foam, some fiberglass, and whatever crap happens to be in the trunk.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1006256_585350588176862_549760315_n.jpg

Rear impact is even worse -- basically you'll slide underneath until you hit the differential, by which time the other vehicle's rear bumper is in your face:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/382513_585350591510195_1281957627_n.jpg

DeLoreans have the illusion of being safe cars because as a marque they have logged ridiculously few miles over the years. If DeLoreans were driven as much as a Toyota or dare I say an F-150, they would kill a disproportionate number of occupants.

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
07-03-2013, 11:23 PM
Terry and his team went helluva lot farther than Lotus did.

Bricklin:
- Integrated roll cage
- Very high side impact sills (steel channel underneath)
- Solid urethane bumpers mounted on shock absorbers
- No cigarette lighter

Terry told me a funny story about that last one. Nobody on the design team smoked (nor did Malcom Bricklin). Basically they forgot to put in both a cigarette lighter and an ash tray. When this was finally pointed out they were too far into pre-production, so they made up the story about smoking while driving being unsafe.

DeLoreans have the illusion of being safe cars because as a marque they have logged ridiculously few miles over the years. If DeLoreans were driven as much as a Toyota or dare I say an F-150, they would kill a disproportionate number of occupants.

Bill Robertson
#5939

That's some good info there - I particularly like the insight about the real reason why the Bricklin didn't have a cigarette lighter/ash tray.

One thing though - cars don't kill people, people kill other people or themselves :)

dvonk
07-04-2013, 07:23 AM
One thing though - cars don't kill people, people kill other people or themselves :)

since this is an unmoderated forum, i can take a political angle and say: yes, cars dont kill people, and neither do guns. i.e., inanimate objects do not go about on killing sprees.

and to stay on topic: Bricklins are cool, DeLoreans are cool, and ive never had any experience with Fieros.

thirdmanj
07-07-2013, 02:34 PM
I always thought the DMC-12 was intended to be competition for the Corvette. Obviously it missed its price range, but I was pretty certain that I read that in either the SS Illusion, or On a Clear Day You Can See GM.

NightFlyer
07-20-2013, 09:40 PM
@Chad -

If you want to do 1/4 mile runs at the strip when I'm in town, we should probably start coordinating.

I'll arrive in SE Wisco some time in the afternoon on Sunday, July 28. I hope to have my car out of storage and running by August 1.

Here are the options for open racing at Great Lakes, and their respective costs:

August 2 Friday Fun Racing for anyone 5pm-10pm $45/race $15/spectator
August 3 Saturday Fun Racing for anyone 9am-Dusk $45/race $20/spectator
August 4 Sunday Fun Racing for anyone 9am-5pm $45/race $20/spectator
August 6 Tuesday Fun Racing for anyone 5pm-10pm $30/race $15/spectator

If I can get my car running sooner than expected, then it would open up the following possibilities:

July 30 Tuesday Fun Racing for anyone 5pm-10pm $30/race $15/spectator
July 31 Wednesday Fun Racing for anyone & Ladies Trophy Race 5pm-10pm $35/race $15 spectator

Note that as Wednesday's are Ladies Trophy Race nights, we could be limited in the number of runs we could do, depending on how busy the track is that particular day.

If we explain why you're bringing 3 cars, we might be able to get you a group car discount. You don't need to worry about a helmet or anything like that, as our cars are slow enough that they don't require any kind of special racing safety gear. A simple NHRA tech inspection is required of all cars running down the track (shouldn't be a problem for us) and they will write a registration number on the front/rear window with white shoe polish (probably only on the front for us for obvious reasons).

If you wanted to pick a firm date from the August choices (and hope for good weather), I could advertise the outing over on Talk and see if any of the other Wisco owners would be interested in joining us. Or, it could just be us - honestly makes no difference one way or the other to me.

So, there it is. Let me know :cool:

Dracula
07-20-2013, 10:31 PM
I have to get tires for the Bricklin and a new clutch for the Fiero; worst case, I omit the Fiero. Other than that, my work schedule allows any of those days to work, so I'd be happy to schedule around your convenience.

NightFlyer
07-21-2013, 02:32 PM
Sounds good - I'd personally like to try and get out there on the 30th, but don't know if my car will ready by then or not. If my fuel pump is still good, and if I can get the new tires on it on Monday, then I don't see why it wouldn't be, but you know how these things go...

I'll be in touch - looking forward to it, as it should be a great time :)

Anyone else on this forum care to join us?

dvonk
07-21-2013, 03:15 PM
Anyone else on this forum care to join us?

if i had a set work schedule (i.e., not on call 28 days a month), i would totally take road trips to these DeLorean-related tech sessions/events, etc.

its too bad i live in a DeLorean wasteland. ive heard these mythical cars were once imported to the US, and that some people actually own them...

NightFlyer
07-21-2013, 07:50 PM
if i had a set work schedule (i.e., not on call 28 days a month), i would totally take road trips to these DeLorean-related tech sessions/events, etc.

its too bad i live in a DeLorean wasteland. ive heard these mythical cars were once imported to the US, and that some people actually own them...

You'd be surprised at the oddball places I've seen D's - dirt desert roads in New Mexico, dirt farm lanes in Iowa, etc.

Dracula
07-21-2013, 09:18 PM
You'd be surprised at the oddball places I've seen D's - dirt desert roads in New Mexico, dirt farm lanes in Iowa, etc.

I've gotten lost in my car in both of those places during the trip to and from DCS Vegas.

NightFlyer
07-21-2013, 09:24 PM
I've gotten lost in my car in both of those places during the trip to and from DCS Vegas.

I thought you looked familiar :)

NightFlyer
08-11-2013, 11:20 AM
@Chad -

Sorry I couldn't get together for the drag-strip outing, but I just barely got my car running and road worthy hours before I had to be back in Michigan to go back to work. Then again, as I understand it, both our cars had issues during the planned time-frame preventing the meetup, as I saw your car at DMC-Midwest during my many parts runs to Crystal Lake over the last two weeks.

The good news is that my car is currently road worthy and running better than ever :)

Perhaps we can get together for a re-scheduling of this event for the next time I'm in SE Wisconsin, which should be some time in the next couple months, as I still look forward to making it out to Great Lakes with my car. Hopefully, both our cars will be in good operation....

Dracula
08-12-2013, 10:49 AM
No problem. In the last few weeks, my DeLorean has been in and out of DMCMW; presently, it's there because the original clutch failed. I seem to be having bad luck with clutches lately.

I may not have the Bricklin then, though, as I'm attempting to sell it to cover some hefty medical bills, but we shall see. I'm not going to give it away, and that seems to be what everyone expects of me.

NightFlyer
08-12-2013, 11:08 AM
No problem. In the last few weeks, my DeLorean has been in and out of DMCMW; presently, it's there because the original clutch failed. I seem to be having bad luck with clutches lately.

I may not have the Bricklin then, though, as I'm attempting to sell it to cover some hefty medical bills, but we shall see. I'm not going to give it away, and that seems to be what everyone expects of me.

Just out of curiosity, what are you looking to get out of the Bricklin?

Dracula
08-12-2013, 11:14 AM
I will not take less than $15,000 for the car. It's nearly flawless and an excellent example that can be driven anywhere at any time.

I have this one guy who said he was interested, but keeps asking me the most annoying questions about details and asking me to do all of his research on buying SOMEONE ELSE'S CAR for him.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
08-22-2013, 10:08 PM
While surfing AMC parts on eBay, I was reminded of something when a rear axle assembly came up:

From 1962 until 1985 AMC made its own rear axle assemblies. They are *NOT* DANA assemblies. DANA purchased the AMC Model 15 rear end tooling in 1985, and continued thereafter making the exact same rear ends rebranded as DANA 35's, but for most of its existence AMC itself was in charge of its own rear axles (a bullet proof assembly, thank you very much).

Chad's Bricklin does not have a DANA rear end -- it has an AMC rear end (among a bevy of other AMC parts).

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
08-22-2013, 10:40 PM
While surfing AMC parts on eBay, I was reminded of something when a rear axle assembly came up:

From 1962 until 1985 AMC made its own rear axle assemblies. They are *NOT* DANA assemblies. DANA purchased the AMC Model 15 rear end tooling in 1985, and continued thereafter making the exact same rear ends rebranded as DANA 35's, but for most of its existence AMC itself was in charge of its own rear axles (a bullet proof assembly, thank you very much).

Chad's Bricklin does not have a DANA rear end -- it has an AMC rear end (among a bevy of other AMC parts).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Most AMC drive-train components were fairly bullet-proof - but they were also very heavy and rust/corrosion prone...

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
08-22-2013, 11:18 PM
Actually AMC's hallmark was rust prevention. They were the first American manufacturer to galvanize the rocker panels and floor pan, and starting in 1980 the entire body structure was galvanized. They were the only manufacturer to make Zeibarting standard equipment.

Yes, if you subject an AMC to enough road salt, it will indeed start to rust, but late 70's/early 80's AMC are legendary in your part of the world for tolerating the stuff far better than any other marque. That's why there are so many still for sale versus other contemporary vehicles (which rusted too badly to survive).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
08-22-2013, 11:38 PM
493

Bill Robertson
#5939

NightFlyer
08-22-2013, 11:58 PM
Body/chassis wise - yes, you are 100% correct. Eagles, Concords, etc are still a fairly common sight, even in the rust belt.

That's why I specifically limited my comment to drive-train components, which were for the most part unprotected cast iron. The cast iron used in the drive-train components was substantially thicker than their contemporary competitors, which tended to make their products relatively slow/heavy/inefficient, but the extra thickness also meant that it took longer to rust/corrode completely through. Not to mention that their exhaust systems were notorious for rust/corrosion.

If I recall correctly, Chrysler was the first to do all stainless exhaust systems.

BTW - I'm a big AMC fan, as both parents are former Kenosha, WI employees.

Dracula
08-23-2013, 12:48 PM
The Bricklin is a great car, absolutely love the drive train and running gear, but it has one down side; the doors. I'm not a fan of the power-operated gullwings. Mine have been converted to air so they go up instantly, but there's still a slight issue with the fitment of the passenger's one.

The sound of it is also that wonderful rumble that you get with a carbed American V8.

Greasy DeLorean Mechanic
08-23-2013, 01:22 PM
Don't take it personally, but if I ever buy your Bricklin it's getting repowered with an AMC 390 and a Borg Warner 4 speed.

Originality be damned.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Dracula
08-23-2013, 05:11 PM
I wouldn't take it personally and I'd applaud such an effort, but you'd have to buy it from me first.

NightFlyer
08-23-2013, 07:33 PM
Don't take it personally, but if I ever buy your Bricklin it's getting repowered with an AMC 390 and a Borg Warner 4 speed.

Originality be damned.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Great minds do think alike - I said that exact same thing to Bill S. at Woodward :cool:

Dracula
08-23-2013, 07:52 PM
I guess I'm the only one who favors the 351, then.

NightFlyer
08-23-2013, 08:17 PM
I guess I'm the only one who favors the 351, then.

I just have a stronger allegiance/preference for AMC over Ford, but the Windsor is a decent enough motor, not to mention much easier/cheaper to source parts and aftermarket goodies for than an AMC motor.

Your Bricklin does look really nice though. If it wasn't for the large medical bills incurred recently by my cat, I would have been interested at your asking price. Maybe if you still have it in a year...

Dracula
08-23-2013, 08:28 PM
It's a BEAUTIFUL car; I don't want to sell it. If it weren't for the prospect of eliminating all of my debt, I wouldn't have considered it. As such, I'm not going below $15,000 for her.

NightFlyer
08-23-2013, 08:40 PM
It's a BEAUTIFUL car; I don't want to sell it. If it weren't for the prospect of eliminating all of my debt, I wouldn't have considered it. As such, I'm not going below $15,000 for her.

Understood and fully agree. Bill S. was wondering why you had it for sale, but when I explained it to him, he understood.

If you still have her in a year or two, maybe I'll take her off your hands (even though I'd prefer an AMC 360, like Bill S.'s current safety green Bricklin).

Dracula
08-23-2013, 08:48 PM
I'd prefer to sell the DeLorean; but, even taking a substantial loss at $29k, I received ZERO bids or offers on eBay for it...

I think that, someday, the Bricklin will be worth more than the DeLorean due to rarity and drivetrain.

NightFlyer
08-23-2013, 08:56 PM
I'd prefer to sell the DeLorean; but, even taking a substantial loss at $29k, I received ZERO bids or offers on eBay for it...

I think that, someday, the Bricklin will be worth more than the DeLorean due to rarity and drivetrain.

Sorry, not interested in your D - I already have one of those :D

Jim
08-23-2013, 09:23 PM
498 my brick

NightFlyer
08-23-2013, 09:41 PM
Funny how D's and Brick's seem to go together :cool:

Dracula
08-24-2013, 04:17 AM
It's odd, too, how some Bricklin owners have a grudge against DeLorean owners and enjoy attacking their cars.

There's a rather apt expression about glass houses that seems to apply.